When correcting some papers last week, I suddenly paused as I saw many sentences with the following structure:
There are four people in my family: My father, my mother, my sister and me.
The pronoun me stood out after the third or fourth time I saw it. I asked my co-teacher about it, and she, though not totally sure about it herself, said that the Korean textbooks used the pronoun me. I always thought it was I.
I e-mailed my neighbor in the states, who's a retired elementary school teacher, well read and my number one source for English grammar. She said that the pronoun I should be used for the following reason:
The pronoun I follows a finite form of the verb "to be" (any form of "to be" except the infinitive form with the "to" in front of it). In other words, use the subjective case (I in this example) if the pronoun is the complement of the linking verb "to be."
It wouldn't surprise me if numerous Korean English language textbooks were wrong (this wouldn't be the first time), but I just want to be sure before I tell my students next week. So if I is not the right pronoun to use in the above example, please let me know.
The Use of 'Me' and 'I'
How about if the order of the words was reversed?
There are four people in my family: Me, my father, my mother, and my sister.
or simply
There are four people in my family including me.
Are these different rules?
"I" comes last
I don't think you can write the above sentence with me anywhere but last. I remember from elementary school being told over and over to say, for example, my father and I or my friend Matt and I instead of me and my father or me and my friend Matt. I don't know the rule behind this though.
For the sentence I originally wrote, in Spanish you would also use the subjective case yo, but in French you would use the prepositional pronoun (if that's what it's called) moi, not the subjective case je, which completely confuses the hell out of me. There are too many different pronouns in French and in Korean though there are a few (or several), they are too seldomly used.
Maybe if we follow Korean textbooks further, they might suggest that you change your user ID on here to 'me.'
"I is me and me is I"
prey4wind, your idiomatic phrase "completely confuses the hell out of me," is interesting; I'll expound on it later. However, for now, I'll submit a quoted reference for the constructions that seem to be confusing. By the way, even though I go with the reference, I'm a descriptivist rather than a prescriptivist. Remember, there is no central language authority! Oh, believe you me that one of my Advanced English and Literature profs thought he was, and tried to prove it with a final course grade of "C" assigned, spelled cee by the way. Consider the following usage of the pronouns:
Me is used in many constructions where strict grammarians prescribe I.
The usage is not so much ungrammatical as indicative of the shrinking range of the nominative form:
1. me began to replace I sometime around the 16th century largely because of the pressure of word order (syntax). (I use bef. 12c).
2. I is now chiefly used as the subject of an immediately following verb.
3. Me occurs in every other position:
a. absolutely <who, me?>,
b. emphatically <me too>,
c. and after prepositions, conjunctions, and verbs, including be:
1. <come with me>,
2. <you're as big as me>,
3. <it's me>.
Almost all usage books recognize the legitimacy of me in these positions, esp. in speech; some recommend I in formal and esp. written contexts after be and after as and than when the first term of the comparison is the subject of a verb.
This, Sir, is Webster's. I will follow up later with further definitiveness. "Ambiguous Bill"
I is last
Are you sure the rule wasn't that you should use, "My father and I" instead of "My father and me?" I could be wrong but 'me and my father' sounds right to I...
Me, myself, and I
I've always been under the impression that "I" should be used at the end of a phrase like "so-and-so and ___" and that using "me" in place of "I" was more of a colloquialism.
Speaking of the example "you're as big as me", I recall my elementary school teachers once saying that it should be "you're as big as I" in written English.
Of course, I'm not really one that fully grasps the arcane aspects of grammar so I don't "correct" my students and co-teachers about it.
My father and I
From what I remember from elementary school, teachers were trying to correct students fron saying me and my father or me and my family not my father and me or my family and me.
Korean pronouns and French
As far as I know, the Korean pronouns it and these and that and those and I and we (our) are quite common in speech, however, you, he, and she are mostly written. "Moi" is a disjunctive pronoun. Speakers of French say "C'est moi" (It's me), they have no nominative complement, they do not say "C'est je." I took two semesters of French in college and remember very little. I have some knowledge of it, but I am not capable of basic communication.
Korean Textbook English
My co-teacher always tells his student to 'repeat me', which I always found interesting since he has his MA in English Literature and usually doesn't make such simple grammar mistakes.
It was only when I found the English instructions in the teacher's manual for the textbook that I realized why.
Does anyone else teaching elementary school in Korea find their co-teachers saying the same thing?
Korean Textbook English
Wait a minute!
Wait a minute!
Did he just repeat me? Don't repeat me!
Me have something to add
Me is confused.
Me thought "She was with Susan and me" was correct because if you drop Susan out of the picture then "She was with me."
"Present tense or past tense?"
Mr. Stron,
Touche! I like the "it seems to me" archaic form "methought" (written as one word). Methinks you are correct.
"Repeat, 'me.'"
The only accepted construction in correct English, either Standard or colloquial or formal or informal usage is as an imperative command as in the following conversation:
A: Repeat, "me." (as in repeat the word me).
B: Me (or of course: Me, me, me, etc.)
Properly spoken , it should be said with the preposition: "Repeat after me."
The manner in which your co-teacher uses the phrase is perhaps a kind of implicature, in other words without the additional meaning in logic, we can infer exactly what the teacher means and wants because simply we know the noun definition of repeat. Therefore, it is meant, but unsaid, i.e. "Repeat after me." Thus, "Repeat me," communicates, although I would rather say its Konglish.
The interrogative and negative usages are correct.
Aye aye
I suggest an inclusive response to the problem in the original post. Every sentence including I or me, will also include the alternate pronoun. It can be placed either at the start or the end of the sentence. So, Barbara went to the supermarket with me and I. Me, my father and I went fishing. I went to the movies with me and my friends. Me and I like pop corn.
Of course, this could get confusing should it be used in conjunction with the administrator's moniker.
I and I and me are EPIK teachers. I and me live and work in Chungcheongbuk-do, but I don't. I and I and me and many others post comments to teachenglishinasia.net.
Myself
So, I know where 'me' and 'I' come in but what about 'myself'?
Ha ha
Don't be such an egoist.
Tautonym (repeat syllables or words)
The echoic interjection "ha-ha" requires a hyphen. Perhaps, I, too, am a bit of an egoist, or just plain eccentric. How I am failing, having never considered that the constructions' meanings were not pronouns at all but monikers; forgive thou me.
Colon or Semicolon?
I think we pretty much agree that in the sentence from my original post would be correct with either me or I.
There are four people in my family: My father, my mother, my sister and I/me.
But then my co-teacher said she would write the sentence with a semicolon instead of a colon. I would write the sentence with a colon, not a semicolon. Again I'm not sure, so is either correct?
Semicolon vs Colon, Round 1
As I understand it, colons are used for lists and digestion while semi-colons are used to link to relative sentences. I would use a semicolon in the above case but would use a colon if you said,
The four people in my family are: my father, my mother, my sister, and me.
using colon vs. semi-colon
Hello, I. I agree with you that semi-colons are used to link related sentences; at least, I think that's what you meant by "relative". Anyway, for that reason, I would keep the colon instead of opting for the semi-colon in prey4wind's sentence: There are four people in my family: My father, my mother, my sister and I/me.
In other words, since "My father, my mother, my sister and I/me" is a phrase rather than a sentence, I would use the colon.
If anyone knows, please let me know if this is incorrect. I would like to know the correct usage.
The Beacon Handbook and Desk Reference
Robert Perrin (Indiana State University) provides in his Quick Reference the following: Use semicolons to join closely related independent clauses; use colons to introduce lists, clarifications, and quotations; do not allow colons to separate verbs from compliments or prepositions from objects.
A good rule to follow is change the semicolon to a period. Then, if the two phrases or clauses can stand alone; the use of the semicolon is correct. Colons, in effect, say, "Notice what follows." Colons formally introduce lists, clarifications, and quotations.
Thus, a semicolon emphasizes the close relationship between related independent clauses and too, items in a series in a lengthy sentence when one or more of the items contains commas.. A semicolon is never used to introduce a list.
Jellybean, and I, and prey4wind are correct.